Friday, 2 May 2014

Noir vs Gevlon

For those that don't know, Gevlon and Noir are not on best friends forever basis any more.

Gevlon is a sometimes abrasive, 'greed is good' pilot who runs

Noir is a mercenary group and run  They also have a standard of behaviour published at

I tried to understand the Gevlon vs Noir issue.  There are allegations made against Noir, and counter allegations made against Gevlon.

My initial position is from Hanlon's Razor : "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.".  I am aware of my bias.  I became more biased by reading Noir's responses.

My understanding is :

For those that think Noir are in the right, I have a question for you.  

Background: You want to hire a Merc corp.  You have heard that a Merc corp is tricky with contracts, and are capable of trying to play both sides.  This Merc corp see nothing wrong with taking your ISK then allying with your enemies.

Q: Would you hire this Merc corp to fight for you?  Would you want your CEO to hire this Merc corp to work for you?

Edit: Q: After you decide that the above is OK and you will still hire them; how about them shooting you multiple times?

For those that think Gevlon is in the right, I have a questions for you.

Background: Gevlon is trying to bring about a new way of doing business in Eve.  He breaks social rules all the time.  He expects us to be careful in our dealings and where 'bad things' happen, believes it is our fault.  The contract Gevlon had was not explicit, and was relying on a social understanding and expectation.

Q: Why should Gevlon be protected by the social contracts that he disdains so much?

Q: Why should someone who makes a unilateral offer to pay ISK, and then renege on that offer within 24 hours be trusted?

Noir's own statements:
  • There was no requirement that we could ONLY shoot the CFC that weekend, only that we DID shoot the CFC that weekend. 
  • If you have a side or plan to be fighting in the area you're hiring us in, you should tell us and get standings set between us the involved parties so we can work together and not blow each other up.
    That's pretty common sense.

My comments:

If I am paying mercs to shoot my enemy, and those mercs have a contract to also shoot the enemy of my enemy, the mercs should let me know.  That's pretty common sense.

If you hire Noir, make sure that you include a clause stating no current conflict of interest, and require notification if a conflict of interest arises.  Either that, or hire someone else.

I understand Gevlon not wanting to pay those he accuses of scamming.

Alekseyev is the public face of Noir.  After reading and ... participating in the debate, I humbly suggest that Noir get a new public face.

This is a propaganda post.  See bias for what it is, then make your own conclusion.

My unsolicited advice for Gevlon who I know reads this blog

Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts. (source).  In other words, stop being so damned prickly.  You could neutralise Noir with diplomacy and propaganda, leaving you free to fight your earlier targets.

Pay for those pods you offered to pay for.  No one forced you to make that offer.  Consider it penance for the stupidity of making the offer.  If you don't it will come back to haunt you as you gain a reputation as someone who does not do what they say they will.

My advice for Noir who probably have no idea who Foo is.

Decide what corp you want to be.

If you want to be a tear harvesting corp, carry on.  You are doing well enough.

If you want to be scammers, you need to appear more sincere. You could have gotten a lot of isk if you had tried to understand and empathise with Gevlon a bit better with your second contacting pilot.  Work from your common interests and get Gevlon to pay for those.

If you want to be honourable:
  • Drop the innocent act.  It is not fooling enough pilots
  • Read  Pretend to understand the concept.  
  • Get a new CEO.  I still don't know if Alex is malicious or stupid; either way if you want to be an honourable merc corp, get rid of Alex.

Your comments:

I expect (and possibly even hope) this post to be troll bait.  Moderation rules will be applied to this post according to the following.
  • Comment with at least a pseudonym. Dealing with 3 different people all claiming the same name of 'anonymous' gets tiring quickly. Comments made by 'anonymous' are likely to be deleted. Comments made by variations on anonymous are welcome.
  • I am hoping for propaganda from both sides.
  • Posts containing NSFW language will be deleted.
  • Posts that are simply one line attacks will be deleted.
  • Any posts that I delete for the above rules will remain as a deleted post.  That is, you will see that I have deleted something, but I will attempt to salvage acceptable text out of it.


I went reading killboards. Each of these kills is Noir on Gevlon. Sometimes with goons, sometimes solo. If I was paying a merc and they shot me multiple times, I would be ticked, and not pay either.

Once might be a mistake.  This is not.  I find it hard to believe that Gevlon understated the betrayal but it appears he did.


  1. Noir is not worth the effort...

    Gevlon, your latest campaign to sink the Noir titan may pan out, and is quite hilarious rebuttal. I truly hope to find a titan KM on your post in the near future, though honestly, it's a long shot.

    Noir has already tarnished their reputation beyond repair. They need to disband the corp and start over. Greed is obviously at the core of this problem along with Alekseyev's name. I can hear him thinking out loud, "Why make 2 bil, when I can make 4 bil doing the same job?" Quite a few CEOs of major RL corporations have made similar poor decisions seeking short-term gain at the expense of long-term penalties. This is a recent example that comes to mind.

    Gevlon, you need to differentiate yourself from Noir's untrustworthy behavior. Pay them what you owe them. You'll then be free from the contract. My best guess is that paying Noir will increase the chances that someone awoxes the titan, simply because you look like the good guy in the eyes of the exact people most likely to assist you with your latest endeavor. By not paying Noir, you're only hurting yourself and turning Noir's corpmates against your cause.

    What if Alekseyev keeps the isk for himself and doesn't pay his corpmates? He betrayed you. What's to stop him from betraying his corpmates? "A fool and his money are soon parted." Alekseyev has ruined the reputation of what once was an exceptional merc group. Only a fool would do that.


  2. I don't agree with a lof lot of things Gevlon says or does but this time he's in the right.

    After hearing about this I certainly will not ever consider hiring Noir to do anything for me. And before the trolls (who don't know me either) jump all over that, they should know I'm at least as rich as Gevlon so yes I can afford to hire them too.

  3. My philosophical position on the topic comes tomorrow, read it.

    About the king of idiots reference. I'm fighting Goons for no other reason than them being "evil". They never really hurt me and they have nothing I want. I simply want to put my mark on EVE history by this "crusade". What Noir did was evil. Hitting them is as good as hitting Goons. And let's face it, they are much easier target, with the prospect of an early and hilarious victory (titan KM)

  4. Also, don't forget that I'm now REALLY mad:

    Feel free to completely remove this post after looking at the link

    1. The link should have been on the original post, which I have now edited to include it.

      I try not to do stealth edits. As such, your comment should stand.

  5. The basic premise behind the questions doesn't make sense. "Being in the right" isn't a concept that translates very well to EVE.

    That said, I'll answer all the subquestions anyway.

    "Would you hire this Merc corp to fight for you? Would you want your CEO to hire this Merc corp to work for you?"


    "Why should Gevlon be protected by the social contracts that he disdains so much?"

    Clearly, he isn't protected by them; so why bother considering whether he 'should' be? the fact that they don't protect him seems to go quite well with the fact that he disdains them.

    "Why should someone who makes a unilateral offer to pay ISK, and then renege on that offer within 24 hours be trusted?"

    I trust Noir and Goblin the same now as I did before the incident. I trust Noir to try and scam you and insult you, and I trust Goblin to live up to the spirit of his agreements but not honor any loopholes you discover.

  6. Actually neither Noir or Gevlon are scammers.

    This is pretty much a dispute over a loosely defined contract between a mercenary group led by the rather mercenary Alekseyev Karrde, and the individualist Gevlon Goblin. It's made worse by the fact they there is also a philosphical difference between the parties.

    My reading of the contact is that it Alekseyev manipulated the contract into one that was favourable for Noir. Namely being paid a bounty for jamming/shooting flagged CFC suicide gankers flying certain ships and a 20% bounty for their pods. The jamming thing is a bit open for interpretation because beyond his initial statement Gevlon doesn't actually say that he'll only pay for kills with ECM on them.

    As it's a bounty contract and doesn't even require Noir to wardec the goons, it's hard to see that it's really a conflict of interest with their other contract. It may limit their effectiveness in earning the bounties, but there is nothing stating that they need to kill a certain number of ships.

    From listening to his podcasts, Alekseyev is a supporter of the darker side of Eve, and he runs Noir as a space business along those lines. In that sense, you should be a little bit wary when dealing with them, but make no mistake it is business for them. They aim to be the best in business, and probably are. In this case they did what was asked and so expect to get paid.

    On the other side Gevlon has a mission to rid space of the big 'evil', and so sees everything in terms of that mission. In that sense, he considers the mercenaries he hires as his personal instrument to achieve that goal, rather than as an independent entity fulfilling a specific request. I suspect that even if the contract was clearer about the need to use ECM, he would've still been upset due to Noir acting against his interests.

    I have no great love for anyone involved in this, but if I needed mercenaries would still cautiously consider Noir.

  7. If everyone wanted to come out of this as reasonable people. Gelvon would pay for the kills he agreed to, Noir would be more upfront in the future if they are being hired by both sides on a conflict.

  8. I have updated this post with some more information. I have found 5 separate occasions where Noir killed Botslayer Goblin ( a known Gevlon alt) during Burn Jita.

    I still think Gevlon should not have offered to pay for the pods.

    It is bizarre to find Gevlon understating the reasons for his mad

  9. Replies
    1. In your linked Reddit thread Aleks wrote: "I don't know how more broadly to indicate that Goblin did not hire us to work with anyone or that he was even going to be involved in the event at all beyond offering us this bounty contract. It would have been reasonable to assume Goblin offered those bounties to more than just us, but if that were the case it just makes even more sense for those groups to clear out the competition for that money."

      So he still thinks that instead of working towards the goal they are hired, they should kill "competitors" (effectively protecting the target) to keep more targets for themselves. That guy is beyond help.

  10. Sounds to me Mr. Goblin is losing his "war" against GOONS and the big bad Mittani. He hired a Merc Corp without giving the facts and made it very loose in its interpretation. He did not sort out blue status during a huge gank event, and got killed multiple times. He won't pay because he is butt hurt. So that pain lead him to now find a "enemy" he thinks he can finally do damage to. Well at least it's content. I am excited to see this escalate.
    NOIR. Has been around for a long time and has a very public figure with a certain set of ideals for his Merc Corp and the career mercs in eve. Would Merc corps be the same today with out what he and Noir. Have done for the little guy. Maybe everyone is wrong. I think one is butt hurt and the other will not bend based on their beliefs. Well I think Mr. Goblin is a fool and someone else capitalized on it. One this is eve. Only trust Chribba. Two who takes a merc Contract with a guy who follows what the contract states or doesn't state.
    Pay the man and learn for next time.
    Most of the merc corps of small stature that are not in the mercs channel and even those in the merc channel probably would have done the same thing or worse.
    How many of the lineman of Noir. Knew is alts names. How much was the author bribed for this.

    Come on man!!

  11. How much was the author bribed for this. Zip, nada, nothing. I wrote this article to inform fellow industrialists to beware.

    Noir allies to goons while taking a contract to kill goons.

    When taking a contract for Gevlon Goblin. And kills Botslayer Goblin?

    Of course if Noir were not trying to screw Gevlon over, this scenario would never have occurred in the first place.

    I understand scamming and screwing people over. I don't do scamming; I generally don't try to screw people over, and if I intend to, they will know all about it.

    * are mercs in the game about scamming and screwing employers during their contracts?
    * are mercs in the game about working in their employers best interest during a contract?
    * is it somewhere in between?

    I will be doing some follow up investigation to look at what existing contracts are for other merc corps, and what merc corps consider that it is acceptable to work against the employers stated goals while taking their ISK.

    1. So everyone knows Goblin would flip if Alek told him about contract. So he didnt.
      He also made it public what he was doing on DoW.
      There was no way he violated the contract Goblin is by not paying. Did Noir. Burn everyone in BJ? Yes and they have a history of it.
      Have you ever hired a merc?
      Contracts are as detailed as the person hiring makes them. If you leave something so open and the person you are hiring says flat out the won't do one thing and counters, thy aren't obligated to do the first thing. It was agreed to. They only do what the agreement pays them for nothing more.

      This is a witch hunt because Goblin and now others dislike Alek based on recent DoW episodes and how he views things or his general unyielding beliefs.
      This was handled poorly by everyone and shouldn't have turned into a Internet pissing match. Alek should have said something but didn't because Goblin would have flipped. Gevlon's hatred of Goons is obscene. You can't have a convo with him cause of his extremist attitude towards Goons.

      Mercs and contractors everywhere are about their contract.
      OK if you are contracted to haul ore for someone and only that ore. Do you go ahead and haul ships and mods because you have an agreement? And do it for free? Or better yet because red frog hauls for Goblin they can't haul for goons? It's not in the Contract but they are helping his enemy so they are wrong?
      Mercs are in it for the contract and isk/money.
      So he hires another merc Corp to only attack goon scouts or alts. Will he not pay because they didn't shoot their fleets or pocos? They weren't contracted to do that.
      They did what the employer asked for he is butt hurt for making the stupid contract in the first place. Did anyone figure out how much he would have to pay? Was it an absurd amount and that is why he is hurt. He should have just had someone else rally his jihad with marmite and lemmings as the true backbone. Too bad neither of his friends really did anything.
      Please convo existing Merc ceos and hell the head of merc channel in game and ask them. Ask about old contracts. Hell try and get an invite onto DoW and have a debate about if you can have an open mind.
      Where has Noir. Ever screwed someone over before? They are true mercs. Contracts are not fully disclosed to line memebers. I bet they didn't know who hired them.
      Is Noir. Hiding from this? No if they did then different story. They were open about the entire thing. If alek really didn't like Goblin I am sure everyone would know about it. This entire thing is started from a blog post where all the facts were left out until others and Noir. Pointed out everything.
      Also I doubt Alek said fuck the mouth that feeds me let's screw Goblin.

      Goblin shows his bi polar mentality by flip flopping on payment.

      I will pay
      No pay
      I will but not for ths.
      I will pay all the things
      I won't pay but have my revenge.
      Their titan will die.

      Come on man!

      Making a threat like that is like pissing in the wind.

      If he wanted to really get back he would have waited and waited scammed is way into Noir. Provided a warp in and blap that ship.

      Or better yet he would have tried the long con on goons.

      More people on his own blog think he is wrong. He said he was wrong.

      Look at the facts.

      Yes alek should have told him about contract or asked him his thoughts. He didn't because he is irrational and made a judgment call. It's the same call I would have done.

      That's like saying anyone with name Goblin in it is Gevlons alt. I highly doubt it. Better yet every person named Darias or whatever version of it is Darias III.

      NOIR wasn't allies to Goons or Goblin just like the contractors on the death star were not allies to the empire or the rebels, but they died anyway.

      Sorry on mobile.

      Gevlon should thank powers and the goons and even Alek and noir. For the content and learn from his mistakes while paying up and putting this behind him.

    2. I now personally dislike Alex because of what Alex has said on reddit. I have not even gotten to the declarations of war.

      If Noir wishes to be a regular 'we are your standard douche merc corp that will try to screw you' they are in a really good position.

      Even I suspect that if I needed them, and I had a water tight contract, I could hire them.

      Prior to this, they had an 'honorable merc' reputation. This caused some groups to give Noir shit, but encouraged others to hire Noir.

      Now Noir and their apologists have listed their views, I can accept that.

      If I am going to 'white night' (not that I do that very often), I *need* black nights.

      Personally, I *want* scammers and scum in the game.

      I also understand that scammers need to pretend to be the good guys so it looks like they were wronged. Just dont be surprised when some forcefully call them on it.

      I really did try to work out if this was a misunderstanding or malicious.

      I think it started as a misunderstanding.

      Regardless of where it started; Noir have responded the way a scammer would, and not the way an honourable business would.

      Gevlon has responded with tears. I would be guilty of crying on his behalf.


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